What character progression style do you prefer?

[Mondayn]

I've been thinking about this alot and wondering what everyone else really preffered as far as character progression goes. The main two I wanted to compare here is a level based class system (DnD / EQ / WoW / Etc.) Vs a skill based system (UO for example). Here are my thoughts on the two.

Class based - Although not completely customizable, you can still be given many progression options (like DnD 3.0 for instance). The class based system allows for a more guided and easily recognizable playstyle. If you see a cleric, you have a general concept of what they are capable of and what to expect from them. This can be easy to get along with, but may leave some feeling a little out of place, since they cant mix and match completely as you could if you wanted a more skill based system.

Skill based - This is really the ultimate in character customization, just like in real life, you can accomplish and learn to do anything you really want to set out and do. Instead of gaining experience to the next level, you just develop more and more experience in the particular skill you use at the time, instead of following a set path guided by the program, you follow your own path.

In the end, I am more traditional and prefer a Class based progression over a free limit skill progression. I think it helps you in the begining to really set your goal as to what you would like to do with your character and not have worry about ever changing your mind (if you do, you can just make a new character!). Although it's not to say that the level base has not changed and altered greatly over the years it has been around (take dnd 2.0 to 3.0 for example).

What are some other peoples thoughts?

[Realmreaver]

I like a level/class progression over a skill progression. It's a game so keep it simple and all honestly there is absolutely NO problem with class/level progression except for one thing.. PVP. Until someone who wants to balance pvp takes out the gear factor it will never be.

Example. The problem with alot of casuals is end game for many of them (us) is the the inability to pvp without being butchered by a uber geared guy who got all his stuff outside PvP. PvP MUST be balanced to work right or it's just gonna be a joke except those on the same 'level'.
Classes can have diff strengths and weaknesses but toss in gear which can give a player a major advantage over anyone else not aptly fitted at max level is simply not balanced game ready to be involved in PvP proper.

Yes I do understand people get gear for pvp but if they are killing the mass pvp people want is that really a good thing? They can look lordy in their gear but least they can play like their chars are mortal. It's more of a dev balance issue.


Sigh.. I wish someone would nab the concept.

[RogueA]

I prefer the Class/Level based system, but not the class lock that most MMOs put on the characters. (AKA You choose a rogue, you ARE a rogue forever.) Which is why I play mainly The Matrix Online instead of the other MMOs. In MxO, all you have to do is visit a hardline (one of the city's phone booths) and you can change class on the fly. So, one moment I could be a hacker(read: Mage in other MMOs) and after a visit to the hardline, I can be a Martial Artist (read: Warrior in other MMOs). I can also hybridize my class so that I could be a Spy(read: Rogue) but have Matrial Arts abilities, or a Martial Artist with Gunman abilities.

[Starwind]

I also prefer the class system, eh... partially. In class based games, you relatively know what you're getting into with each class, and if you do a bit of research you'll know what your role is later on aswell. I also like it because you can't really have characters that are good at everything. You can be tough as nails, but you have to sacrifice your damage to do so. You can absolutely massacre things/people at close range, but you have to deal with being slaughtered if you can't get close. And likewise you can be able to dominate things/people at a range, but if they get close to you, you die.

That being said, I also like the skill based system aswell. Not for any reason really, but because Runescape was the first MMORPG I played, and I loved it. Of course, there are flaws in both systems, but it seems like (outside of gear issues) a skill based system has more flaws. Because you always run into the people that find out which skills are the most powerful and which are weak, and then they max out every uber-powerful skill they have and have the psycho nearly invincible character.

A good example of this would be in the old (old, old) Runescape, "pures", or purely combat characters. They did nothing but raise their attack (melee accuracy), and strength (melee damage) to massive levels, while only raising their defense high enough to use good armor. This would result in deceivingly low "Combat Level" tags on people, and they'd hit for ridiculously high amounts. Some would also level up their "prayer" and/or ranged skills aswell, so they'd be able to keep you from getting away with a bow, and also get temporary immunity to ranged attacks or further boosts to their attack/strength to hit you for even more.

The closest thing to that in WoW would be Shadow Priests and Locks... Stupid face melters.

[Wolf]

A good example of this would be in the old (old, old) Runescape, "pures", or purely combat characters. They did nothing but raise their attack (melee accuracy), and strength (melee damage) to massive levels, while only raising their defense high enough to use good armor. This would result in deceivingly low "Combat Level" tags on people, and they'd hit for ridiculously high amounts. Some would also level up their "prayer" and/or ranged skills aswell, so they'd be able to keep you from getting away with a bow, and also get temporary immunity to ranged attacks or further boosts to their attack/strength to hit you for even more.


Heh, I had one of those. Rune 2h and black armor. For anyone who hasn't played, that is the highest damage sword, but only the 4th worst armor set. To put it more in perspective, your defense had to be level 15 (or something close to that, maybe even 10) to wear black armor, yet your attack had to be 40 for Rune weapons, so big difference.

Back on topic though, I think the class systems work the best. Although, I want to find a game where the more I use say, Fireball, the bigger the Fireball gets and the more damage it does. I can't stand games like WoW where the strongest rank of the spell looks exactly the same as the lowest.

[Keudiar]

One of the best systems I have ever seen for class progression is AO (anarchy online). Now while I dont prefer the scifi type game I did play this one for quite a while. The great thing about AO is it has both systems in place at the same time. Yes you gain levels but there is also a skill tree that you can spend taining points in that you gain by gaining levels. Anyone ever seen a atrox NT:)? Atrox is the tank race in AO but the NT is the mage class. I have seen atrox NTs that were more than just a little deadly LOL.

[Palantir30]

Why choose?

Take both.

[Space Cadet]

I don't mind the locked class systems, in WoW i'm a warrior, this works for me, I beat things over the head with my sword until they die from it, if i want healing while doing this, go look for a priest/paladin. In a class based system if I want a healer, it may actually be that the massive guy with a sword bigger than I am is also a pretty nifty healer, but the dress wearing guy with a silly hat actually just has bad fashion sense.

On the other hand, anyone here play dungeon siege? the more you used a skill, the better it got, this was pretty cool. But I don't think it would work in an MMO, the more you swing your sword, the stronger you get, and the better you get at swinging swords, so you can have a bigger sword to swing around, neat. Except that the gap between hardcore and casual would be insane, with enough time to devote, they wouldn't have a class, they would just be omnipotent, Nth level mage with ability to heal and pull out a huge 2 handed sword when it came to melee. Oh dear.

On the Subject of WoW PvP balance, I have this to say, points system. Simple as that, instead of the level difference governing who you play with, which results in a lvl 30 casual being in the same place as a twinked up and pimped out level 39, you give each item they equip a point value, so this way, the blue decked twink 39 would be in the same battle as the average equipment lvl 55 or so. Oops, twinking doesn't look so attractive anymore. You would of course get people who try and cheat the system by having awesome weapons, but sub-par armour, so yeah, they smash, but throw a fireball in their face and they die. It's a system I'd like to see, because the tactics would have to be really ingenious to get any sort of distinct advantage from it.

[bob the goat]

I tend to like the structure behind a level based, but wish that there was an element of skill based in it as well. My 60 hunter in WOW has 300 on one and two hand axes, and am almost to 300 with swords. I just picked up a BOP dagger and decided I may as well grind that up just incase. What I don’t understand is: I can wield a sword with deadly precision, but can barely land a blow with a dagger. A dagger is essentially a really short sword. A sword is more difficult to handle. How is it I can miss while attacking a level 40 with a dagger, but wreak havoc with a sword. Another thing, how is it I can be good with a sword, but am not able to even look at a mace. It’s as if someone is saying “You have completely mastered the delicate art of killing with a gun and bow. You are deadly with a axe, and can even slay with a sword (essentially a pointy metal stick), but you are no where near capable of wielding a wood stick with bits of metal stuck to it.”

I understand that a mace is not the ideal hunter weapon, but some of them have stats that I would like to have. Give me a nerf for using it, but allow me to hold it go get the bonuses.

On the other hand, what is to stop, for example, a mage from using a 2wo handed sword. Make the learning curve horrible. Make it do less damage, but if you want the stats from it, then they should be available.

[wiccalight]

Well I have to go with skill based mainly because both SWG and EVE Online spoiled me :) .

I love to create a character to fit MY style of gameplay, that is not combat oriented. In SWG ( before the Combat Upgrade) I played a crafter that had skills in rifle, scout, and medic. But most of my skill points (70% of 250) went to crafting skills.
In EVE Online the skills are interesting, you constantly train in skills no matter what your doing, and even when your off line you still train in a skill. The downside to EVE's method is that you can only train one skill at a time and these skills train in real time, and some have been known to take up to SIX MONTHS to train in. But there is no limit on how many skills you can have, but each has a 5 level limit, I believe, I may be wrong in that its been almost a year since I last played EVE.

But I understand why many prefer the class based skills, less thought on what a opponent can do, Less chances of players having Uber characters, less thought on how your character will be built. It IS more stable and that is why many MMOs go that route. But I like to not have limits when I play, I also am a gamer that plays to have fun not to win. I know I'm in the minority in that aspect but there are enough like me out there to make games like EVE profitable.

[Pentawolf]

I rather like class based progression, but sprinkling in some skill based progression is also good. I play CoH/V mostly though.. and I'm quite happy with its class based progression (and lack of item hoardng... something that just drives me nuts in rpgs because I get.... obsessed with sets and getting better items...)

[Zarithar]

Probably a holdover from my AD&D roots, but the class/level system is the one I am most comfortable with. I don't really care too much for skill based levelling systems... although I do enjoy the addition of things such as talent trees (Diablo II/WoW) and AA abilities (EQ) which allow variations within a class.

[BorusWintersong]

I’m confused with this thread. The original poster started with the question of Level System vs. Skill system. That I understand. But then he goes to Class vs. Skill, that confuses.

Class is not a progression system, but a character definition system. You can easily make a system where you pick a class but all development is done trough skilling up.

There are, as noted, two basic progression systems:

1) Leveling, where you advance by earning experience
2) Skilling up, where you advance by doing the same task over and over as you slowly improve at doing it

Additionally you can have two basic character definition systems:

1) Class based, where the entire definition of the character is pre-made and you cant go out of the parameters. Sometimes some games may allow for multi classing, where you pick two or more classes, sometimes with limitations, sometimes without them.
2) Tree-based system, where you advance trough a tree full of branches, sometimes possible to advance trough various branches at a time.

There are actually more advancement and character definition systems, like purely equipment based progression systems, but the most common ones are these.

You have to note, though, that you can easily have a hybrid of both. Most games are actually a subtle mix of them. Trade skill system in EQ2 for example is a tree-based system that you advance trough with leveling progression. In EQ1 trade skill system was class based were you advanced trough skilling up, while at the same time allowing for multi-classing.

To add complexity to things, some games may have a bit of both worlds. EQ1 and 2 both have a main progression based on leveling, but they have side advancements based on skilling up for things like Evocation, Channeling, Slashing, and other combat skills. Your class will usually define what skills you can progress trough and how good you can become in each.

Similarly, there can be class systems that implement a progression tree. World of Warcraft implements a level based class system that also includes a tree character definition aspect, one where you can multi branch trough.

Now what do I personally like? I have to say I have come to like the leveling progression with class definition, and I do welcome additional tree definition aspects for customization purposes. The main personal reason for this is that most of the time I feel (and this is my own personal opinion) that tree based character definitions make everyone start a boring life of equality. I don’t feel special at all there while on a class based system I start off being what I wanted to be from the start.

[Tathaur]

I think EvE Online (www.eve.is) has the progression system I've encountered that I like the most.

Every skill can be leveled up to level 5, and starts at level 0 initially. Each skill also has a rank, used to determine how long it takes to train a skill, and uses one primary and secondary attribute, which determine how long it takes you to train the skill.

When you start training a skill, it trains even when you are offline; this means your character progression is constant, even when you can't play a lot, although of course the other, equally important advancement is in assets, which you need to play to gain, obviously.

Skill training times are roughly so, modified by attributes and multiplied by rank (the highest skills are rank 12, those take twelve times as long to train as the listed here, those are about normal for a rank 1 skill with decent attributes):
0-1: ten minutes
1-2: One hour
2-3: seven hours
3-4: 24 hours
4-5: 5 days.

Each skill gives a bonus to a certain ship, module, or action (ex: Navigation increases your ship's speed by 5%/level, Gunnery increases your gun's tracking by 2% per level, Amarr Frigate gives bonuses to flying amarr frigates, which vary from ship to ship.).

The great thing about this system is, the powergamers don't advance their characters any faster than the casual players (although of course the powergamers will have more cash, ships, etc), and characters never 'max out': there's always a new skill on the horizon.

Although at a glance, this system heavily handicaps newbies, as they will never catch up to the veterans, this is not so; The advancement from level 4 to 5 is roughly 4 times longer than from 0-4, so that a moderately skilled player with most relevant skills at level 4 is only about 5% weaker than a veteran with most skills at level 5.

Also, the fact that most veterans can't bring the whole force of their skillpoint total to bear while flying one ship also evens the playing field; For instance, I have been playing for two years, and I have 23 million skillpoints; I am the WoW equivalivent of a level 60 character with molten core gear. However, I am unable to use more than about 10 million of my skillpoints to use in any one ship; although I am specialized in gallente battleships, I also have a couple of million invested in skills relevant to gallente cruisers, frigates, and other race's ships; this means that, while flying a gallente battleship, those skillpoints are not used. Someone who has been playing for half a year and exlusively specialized in one ship type is roughly equal to me in power, when they are flying their chosen ships; I might be capable of doing more varied things, but I am no more powerful than a relatively new character.

The great thing about this system is, in a relatively short amount of time, players can build up competetive characters, while at the same time, older players never "max out".

[Pasha_Bigdog]

I think skill system is the best. Coz with skill i truly can make char i want. Like in UO.

[Andara Bledin]

I really like the concept behind skill systems, because you can truly create a personal character.

Unfortunately, in any case where you have a skill system, you will get the munchkins who do the number crunching and trash anybody who falls outside their min/max lines. Had a player in our short-lived AD&D group that gave us a hard time every time we levelled and made character choices based on roleplaying rather than being the absolutely most effective at whatever our classes were. If other obligations hadn't killed the group, his munchkin rants would have.

We already see a bit of this even in level-based progression systems. How many times have you seen a Shadow Priest get dissed for not going Holy spec?

....

this reminds me... I have to re-build my idiot Warlock for WoW... he is so never getting into a raid group....

[55litheRR!!]

I prefer the duality of 2 classes in Guild Wars. I play a Ranger/Mentalist (she's only 11, but I lvl EXTREMELY slow). I started with Ranger purely for the pet (using a wolf right now... tryin to get him to 11, where he upgrades). When solo or in a party, I rely heavily on my mentalist abilities.

My bar, for now:

Rez Signet
Troll Unguent
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal *useless, but required to have pet outside of town*
Backfire
Conjure Phantasm
Empathy
Phantom Pain

Right now, most of my points are divided into Animal Mastery (6+1), Illusion (6), and Domination (6). I have other points, but they are added to such things as Survival (5 ~ i think) and other pts to help out. Maybe next level, I'll see what needs changing or what not.