Warhammer is NOT a rip-off of World of Warcraft.

[h3knuckles]

Not to be a jerk, but I saw a poster in one of the comics discussion threads say something along the lines of the Warhammer MMO looking like a rip-off of WoW, and felt compelled to spread the word. Back when I first heard about Warhammer's up-and-coming MMO I knew I'd start to see this (apparently Tycho felt the same way, see http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10, and the corresponding newspost), and I'd just like to point out: Warhammer Fantasy launched in 1983 (1), Warcraft 1 launched in 1994 (2), & while Warhammer 40,000 launched in 1987 (3), Starcraft didn't come out till 1996 (2). Furthermore, although I probably don't need to point this out, even the MMO design isn't knocking anything off; it's made by Mythic Entertainment, the people who made DAoC (4)

Now, mind you, I am a die-hard Warcraft fan. Have been since Warcraft 1. I own all the artbooks, collector's editions, etc. I even have the E-Book Chris Metzen wrote (he's the VP of creative development, but he's always been a writer and concept artist). I love the series, but Blizzard totally ripped Games Workshop off. They ripped off Warhammer: Fantasy with Warcraft, and Warhammer 40,000 with Starcraft.

Now in both instances Blizzard has done a pretty good job of adding enough new material and twisting things to make it their own, but the template was clearly the old tabletop games by that esteemed company of British con-artists*.

In fact, the ridiculously over-exagerated (sp?) shoulder armors, the emphasis on jewelery, etc., that has become increasingly common in WoW is something of a source of frustration for me because it all just feels like Blizz is backsliding into cribbing from GW (take a look at the miniatures @ http://www.gamesworkshop.com/ to see what I'm talking about)

*Have you ever tried to price out what it costs just to get started in Warhammer? At one point (many years ago) I owned the ENTIRE Battletech tabletop product line, and even that only cost about as much as buying 2 or 3 of the 12 factions of WH40k would have. ^_^;

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy#History
(2) http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/profile.shtml
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40%2C000#History
(4) http://www.mythicentertainment.com/games/index.html

[Woody]

I've tried telling them that. Unfortunately... they don't listen.

[junior]

I found the original title amusing, considering that 99% of the time, the charges are flying the other way.

Unfortunately, the rest of the post drifted into the usual 99% of the charges.

Blizzard, imo, no more ripped off GW than they ripped off Starship Troopers (the book, not the sorry excuse for a film), D&D, Tolkien, fantasy anime, and any of the other myriad of fantasy and sci-fi settings that exist out there. GW isn't the only wellspring of out there. Nor is GW even all that unique in what they release (except, perhaps, that GW's stuff is darker than most settings). Even a casual look at Blizzard's stuff will point to a wide variety of sources that may have provided inspiration.

[bulldog]

Well, it's obviously not true that Warhammer is a WoW rip off, though that said Mythic probably have taken a lot of ideas from WoW, being the amazing, unbeatable MMO it is. Do publishers no longer have the right to use Orcs and Goblins without being criticised of ripping off WoW? Command and Conquer was the first RTS, there's now thousands of RTS's;are they all rip offs?

[junior]

Actually, there were older RTS games. For instance, the same company that released Command and Conquer also released Dune II, and the latter came before the former.

:p

But even Dune II wasn't the first RTS.

In any case, imo the word 'rip-off' is far too overused. It has some fairly strong negative connotations that imo should only be associated with something that actually defrauds the party being ripped off. Borrowing elements from different sources is pretty much standard within the various fiction industries, and I think 'derivative' and similar terms (borrowed, emulated, appropriated from, copied, similar to) should be used instead. 'Rip-off' should be saved for those occasions when a setting is lifted pretty much intact and placed within someone else's property without the original owner's permission.

Or at least that's my opinion.

[Zapp Branigan]

Personaly I think WoW copied Mythic's DAoC in a lot of aspects, so if Warhammer turns out to be like DAoC with the Warhammer world I'd sooner give Mythic and Games Workshop their proper dues since DAoC has had many game mechanics people claim WoW invented about 3 years prior before WoWs release. So give credit where credit is due, WoW isn't the shining bastion of MMO originality Blizzard fanboys praise it to be.

[Nanaki]

Even Developers themselves say that WoW had nothing innovative, nothing new, just that they heavily refined and built upon all those concepts they used.

Although, its not to say that Warhammer is original, either.

[Stagecoach]

At Blizzcon, the developers said that they had looked at different games and tried to incorporate the best features of these games.

This happens a lot in the industry anyways. A couple of my friends used to work at Activision. Activision HQ itself kept a libary of games from it's competitors.

[Zapp Branigan]

I don't have a problem with WoW drawing upon the succesfull aspects of previous MMOs and improving on them, I just have a bit of a twix with Blizzard fanboys playing WoW as their first MMO who think they found the holy grail when its a sippy cup.

[KaiTenSatsuma]

Personally i dont care, whichever game keeps me drawn in (warhammer has a good shot at it so far, WoW somehow disgusts me, i dont know why either, might be the constant raiding bull) will be the game im playing.

[Draconix]

Not to be a jerk, but I saw a poster in one of the comics discussion threads say something along the lines of the Warhammer MMO looking like a rip-off of WoW, and felt compelled to spread the word. Back when I first heard about Warhammer's up-and-coming MMO I knew I'd start to see this (apparently Tycho felt the same way, see http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10, and the corresponding newspost), and I'd just like to point out: Warhammer Fantasy launched in 1983 (1), Warcraft 1 launched in 1994 (2), & while Warhammer 40,000 launched in 1987 (3), Starcraft didn't come out till 1996 (2). Furthermore, although I probably don't need to point this out, even the MMO design isn't knocking anything off; it's made by Mythic Entertainment, the people who made DAoC (4)

Now, mind you, I am a die-hard Warcraft fan. Have been since Warcraft 1. I own all the artbooks, collector's editions, etc. I even have the E-Book Chris Metzen wrote (he's the VP of creative development, but he's always been a writer and concept artist). I love the series, but Blizzard totally ripped Games Workshop off. They ripped off Warhammer: Fantasy with Warcraft, and Warhammer 40,000 with Starcraft.

Now in both instances Blizzard has done a pretty good job of adding enough new material and twisting things to make it their own, but the template was clearly the old tabletop games by that esteemed company of British con-artists*.

In fact, the ridiculously over-exagerated (sp?) shoulder armors, the emphasis on jewelery, etc., that has become increasingly common in WoW is something of a source of frustration for me because it all just feels like Blizz is backsliding into cribbing from GW (take a look at the miniatures @ http://www.gamesworkshop.com/ to see what I'm talking about)

*Have you ever tried to price out what it costs just to get started in Warhammer? At one point (many years ago) I owned the ENTIRE Battletech tabletop product line, and even that only cost about as much as buying 2 or 3 of the 12 factions of WH40k would have. ^_^;

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy#History
(2) http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/profile.shtml
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40%2C000#History
(4) http://www.mythicentertainment.com/games/index.html

Yes but I wasnt saying it was the same, I was saying it was the same drawings more or less.
Take a look at these 2 links:
1.http://www.gamesradar.com/us/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/W/Warhammer%20Online%20-%20Age%20of%20Reckoning/Bulk%20Viewer/4.4.06/special_08--screenshot_large.jpg
2.http://www.netguru.dk/blog/img/wow/wow1.jpg

[Wolf]

That is just the idea that comes into our head when we think of dwarves, they aren't copying, they're just using what we already know. I'd prefer they don't call something that looks like a squirrel a Dwarf.

If you are correct Draconix, then LotR owes WoW some cash for copying their dwarf!

[junior]

Yes but I wasnt saying it was the same, I was saying it was the same drawings more or less.
Take a look at these 2 links:
1.http://www.gamesradar.com/us/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/W/Warhammer%20Online%20-%20Age%20of%20Reckoning/Bulk%20Viewer/4.4.06/special_08--screenshot_large.jpg
2.http://www.netguru.dk/blog/img/wow/wow1.jpg

I'm not sure what the significance of those two screenshots are. Both look like they've got fairly stereo-typical dwarves. For that matter, you could swap Gimli from the LotR movies in there and he'd fit right in.

A dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf, more or less. They like to drink, they carry big hammers, they love gold (or, as one dwarf in Discworld put it, dwarves only tell it that to get it into bed with them), and they have long, often braided, beards. Warcraft has mixed things up a bit by giving them some steam tech and guns, and I'm not sure if Warhammer dwarves have that (the Empire does, however, including steam driven tanks).

[KaiTenSatsuma]

That is just the idea that comes into our head when we think of dwarves, they aren't copying, they're just using what we already know. I'd prefer they don't call something that looks like a squirrel a Dwarf.

If you are correct Draconix, then LotR owes WoW some cash for copying their dwarf!

LotR has been around longer than WoW so wouldnt it be the reverse?

i think the worst part is that people wont shut up and stop argueing about this, if they think its a rip-off they werent going to play it in the first place, being WoW fanboys/girls after all, so what kind of sense does it make to argue with a tree? none, just wait for the game to come out, buy it, and enjoy it.

personally im excited about the Conan MMOG coming out.

[Mortikus]

When Blizzard came out with their very first Warcraft game I assumed it was a liscensed version of Warhammer. I was surprised to find out it wasn't and was always amazed GW didn't sue Blizzard back then.

[junior]

If GW had sued Blizzard, they would have failed. When the first Warcraft game came out, it was merely a generic fantasy setting. There's nothing particularly noteworthy about the setting to point toward Warhammer aside from the British voices (since GW is a British company).

[SirGraystone]

If you want to go back far enough in 1971 Chainmail (the ancestor of Dungeons and Dragons) was created

[Nanaki]

Wasnt the original fantasy setting devised by Tolkien, based on rather ancient folklore? Becides, the whole issue is much like the issue over who devised Mecha first, and who first came up with the idea of Vampires.

[Darkov]

The point is, much of what people see in Warcraft was pioneered by Warhammer. Whilst orcs and elves have been around a long time, and Tolkien was the one to bring it into main stream media (at his time anyways), it's how they are visualised that is what Warhammer did. They said orcs are always green and dwarves have blunderbusses, not Warcraft.

It's just sad that people have such small pools of knowledge to draw on in such a huge and vast area such as fantasy. I wonder how many people who have the seen the LotR movies have read the books? Or how many people who have played Warcraft have read any serious fantasy or sci fi literature.

[Zarithar]

Blizzard acknowledges this in subtle ways... and in many ways Warcraft is an homage to the stylized look of the Warhammer universe. I played Warhammer Fantasy RPG years ago and when I first starting playing WC games, I noticed the similarity (and it's a bigger similarity than just a dwarf is a dwarf... WoW dwarves look alot like Warhammer dwarves... moreso than Tolkien dwarves).

If you click repeatedly on the griffon rider unit from WC3, he will in fact say "I bought my Warhammer for 40k"

So yea... rip off is a bit harsh. I'd say homage or tribute is a better word.

[Ovidius]

WoW is ultra-generic in it's content, nothing in it is original...i don't hate on the game all that much, because it is the sameway with all Medieval games, they all liberally lift their ideas from Tolkien and folklore (also it is rather redundant that Blizzard's idea of making money is suckering fools into spending hundreds of hours in instances to get some crappy loot to make themselves feel better about themselves in the game...kinda like how some rich people act in real life who are depressed and buy themselves Corvettes)...

and if you wanna get down right to the truth of who has ripped off who, it all goes back to Homer being the Originator of Fantasy with the Iliad and Oddessy....the bearded guy, not the donut-eating cartoon one

[Zarithar]

and if you wanna get down right to the truth of who has ripped off who, it all goes back to Homer being the Originator of Fantasy with the Iliad and Oddessy....the bearded guy, not the donut-eating cartoon one

Damn, and here I thought you meant my uncle Homer. :(

[KaiTenSatsuma]

actually i used to read the simpsons comic books in my free time, homer played the part of homer once.

thought that would be a humerous image haha.

to continue arguement, i think its safe to say no RPG game now is actually completely original,all take from a basic template of myths, folklore, other games, D&D, and books, heck you cant show a dwarf without some overexuberant and perfectionist LotR fan complaining "thats not what gimli looked like! his beard was a quarter inch wider" or something like that.

basically it will probably take more money and time to make a completely original RPG game than anyone is willing to spend, can we now go to argueing who originally made up vampires? that arguement always makes me giggle.

[Aku]

It seems to be a case of cross polination. Blizz took some from Warhammer, now warhammer is borrowing a bit from Blizz as it crosses into the MMORG genre.

Most good storytellers, (from what I can tell) take themes that the audience is already familar with and adds a twist to them. It is indeed a tribute to both blizz and Warhammer that they have borrowed from eachother and put their own spin on it. Who started it is less important than the quality of product we have now.

[reploidx]

I hope no one argues about the Warhammer Dark Elves not being "Dark". I actually had an talk with someone about it. My friend thought it was pretty stupid to call them Dark Elves when they're not Dark Skinned, and i had to sit there and tell him that the Warhammer Dark elves would make DnD and other Dark elves in the fantasy genre cry like sissies, cause the Warhammer Dark elves are not to be messed around with.

[junior]

Only because people have destroyed the DnD dark elves.

The original DnD dark elves were pretty nasty. Writers have cleaned them up considerably due to the fact that they've been popular as subjects for novels.

[Realmreaver]

Well even Toilken said he took his ideas from folklore so the original idealers was everybodies like us. So owe us for what our ansetorsdid! LOL

Really tho nothing is really original just has to be different enough so you don't get sued =P

That being said the only thing WoW did was change it so more people would play their game then any other MMO period. Therein lies the real diff.
The amount of subscribers.

They took a little this took a little that and got rid of what kept people from playing.

[Calen]

1) The worlds aren't remotely similar. Not more than Games Workshop having copied Tolkien-esque stuff. So you could say that Chris Metzen (herein: WoW + Blizz) copied him. As for WH40K = copy Starcraft, I'd be inclined to agree with you too some point.

2) WoW and usually alot off good MMOs coming out forward in time tend to be plished games that, that has few if any innovative new features to the MMOG world. So saying that WoW is a copy off DAoC is like saying that Super Mario Galaxy is a total rip off of Super Mario Bros for the NES. Get my drift?

Calen
The Devil's Advocate

[yewsef]

Well, it's obviously not true that Warhammer is a WoW rip off, though that said Mythic probably have taken a lot of ideas from WoW, being the amazing, unbeatable MMO it is. Do publishers no longer have the right to use Orcs and Goblins without being criticised of ripping off WoW? Command and Conquer was the first RTS, there's now thousands of RTS's;are they all rip offs?

Actually Dune2 was the first RTS, which is made by the same company that created C&C series. If I recall correctly, Blizzard bought Dune2 engine rights to create WarCraft 1. WarCraft1 is definitely a rip off, off Dune2. But I liked it nonetheless.

[Deornwulf]

Speaking of Dune, most of the ideas for the original Warhammer 40k originated from Dune. Do a comparison of the original Dune books and movies to the 40k Universe and you will see what I am talking about.

However, there is nothing new under the sun. Socrates or Plato parsed the plotlines of every single tale down to 7 basic plots. It still holds true today. What matters is what the game designer does with the material.

For the record, I'm still waiting for the Warhammer 40K MMO to be announced. Failing that, a Babylon 5 MMO.

[Nekojin]

I vividly remember when Space Hulk came out, and the Genestealers were introduced into the WH40k world, that many, many people grumbled that they were little more than an Aliens ripoff.

The more things change...

[Draca]

True, I like to reserve the term “rip-off” for actual instances of plagiarism or the like. Otherwise, I refer to something as a “shameless (nameofgame) clone.” And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Nor does it preclude them from cloning their own previous work. For instance, WoW is in many ways a shameless Diablo clone. Do I think that means they shouldn’t have used a three tab talent tree system? Hell no, that’s one of the things I liked best about the game.

However, just because a game franchise started way back in the Jurassic before another franchise, that doesn’t preclude the older one or the younger one from cloning each other’s work in certain respects. For instance, GW came out before Blizzard or WarCraft, but “World of Warcraft” came out before “Warhammer Online.” Hence, the opportunity for GW to clone for their MMO things that Blizzard put in theirs first.

I’d probably be more useful to get people to elaborate what part of “rip-off” they mean? Do they mean a more interactive, hot-bar-&-icon-heavy combat system? Quest NPCs clearly marked with over-the-head icons? Quest journals, with bulleted “to do” lists? If that’s the case I don’t think WoW pioneered those either, though it was a lot of people’s first exposure to them. They don’t own them, and other games have used them. How do we know that All those cool next-gen of MMOG features weren’t cloned by Warhammer from a game like SWG, or EQ2, or even from V:SoH? The point is, it’s a good system that players like, and has thus proliferated. This is how games and genres of games evolve.

If they mean green orcs with shoulder pads taller then their heads… well … I think I have to side with Warhammer on this one. It’s the first place I saw them, and I don’t have the gamer’s history degree to contradict that.

[Nekojin]

It's impossible to avoid influence in the gaming industries, both the P&P and electronic versions. Game directors are watching what others do, and asking themselves, "How can I do that better?"

In some cases, the way to do it better is to dramatically change things. In other cases, the best way to do it is to imitate the features that are considered popular or important, and rework the parts that people grumble about. That's essentially what WoW did - they polished the hell out of the entire MMO genre, and distilled it down into one game.

Now, every game that comes after will use WoW as an example, and will inevitably borrow bits that they like. You can't copyright game mechanics, after all... only code. And WoW will be the benchmark to beat for some time to come, until another revolutionary game comes along and blows WoW out of the water.

(Please don't quibble about whether WoW was evolutionary, revolutionary, or neither - it really doesn't matter)

[judemorrigan]

Actually Dune2 was the first RTS

You seem to have misspelled "Herzog Zwei" there.

[Nanaki]

I dont mind writers, games, and such borrowing from eachother (And you cant deny that both WoW and Warhammer both borrow from Tolkien's works). In the end, previous works are a very huge and very common source of inspiration and I actually consider it a form of flattery (If your works are good, they will be a reference used for future works). Just as long as they (the writers) know what they are doing. Bringing something over just 'for the hell of it' usually doesnt works well, and sometimes, some things just arent meant for crossovers. The Beast in Homeworld: Cataclysm and the Ithkul in Master of Orion 3 are big examples of this (Back in the breif point of game history when every developer thought their game had to have it's disgusting, parasitic uber race of dooooom).